View Full Version : River Medway
Just done a couple nights with a mate on a spot we have been baiting for a little while. Had a fair few topped by a stunning 28lb10oz mirror.
niknak8888
10-08-2008, 02:13
have been on the ensfield bridge bit in the penshurst angling and had a 3lb then a 2lb chub legering red sweetcorn. had a few more unsuccessful visits afterwards, only small chub trotting bread.
niknak8888
15-08-2008, 23:52
Had a maggot session in the backwater belonging to penshurst, and had a few roach and perch then then a whopping 4oz bleak!!! was amazed to see such a big 1 as normally theyr so small!!
niknak8888
27-08-2008, 21:06
went a bit further down still on the penshurst bit and had awful luck!! first had a nice roach of about a lb which was good, then a few small fish and a gudgeon (my first 1) but later i hooked into a barbel of about 8lb!!! i saw it swim up to the surface once id hooked it and got a good look at it and then it realised what was goin on and shot off snapping the hooklength which was only about 2lb... rrrrrr!!! was so annoyed and didnt get anthing else for the rest of the day, but my m8 hooked into a carp and lost tht aswell. so anoyin.
Sledgehammer
27-08-2008, 21:17
Thats interesting Nik. We are always interested to see how far down they get, not many are reported at Penshurst. How far down were you? One was reported recently as far down as beyond Tonbridge.
I fish further up at Ashurst and Fordcombe where all the big boys are.
niknak8888
31-08-2008, 00:01
Yeh thts what ive heard!! was very surprised to see it! it was about 1 + 1/2 miles down from ensfield bridge. long walk to get there but some cracking swims!!
Big boys!! that one would be big enough for me anyday! haha
How big have you had them to down there then?
British1st
14-10-2008, 20:13
Hi all
Thinking about haveing a go for carp on the tonbridge section of the Medway.
I havnt river carped before so after a bit of advice, i am thinking about pre baiting a few areas how much bait is best a couple of kilos of particle with boilies scattered ontop ok or just boillies?
Also as i wont be doing nights just mornings or afternoon /early evening what best bite indercation the usual alarms and hangers or sit on the rods with tips in the air beach caster style?
Any advice much appreciated
jimikill
16-10-2008, 15:54
Heya, if theres boats about backlead. otherwise tips to the sky to keep as much line clear.
use indicators as usual.
i use groundbait n particles on one rod
n large boilies only on the other.
Always watch the tips as they will give indecation of liners etc long before a
run develops.
if im doing short overnighters i often use lumps of paste rather than boilies as they breakdown much faster leaking attraction off much better.
hope this helps, anything else, message me.
British1st
16-10-2008, 17:29
Heya, if theres boats about backlead. otherwise tips to the sky to keep as much line clear.
use indicators as usual.
i use groundbait n particles on one rod
n large boilies only on the other.
Always watch the tips as they will give indecation of liners etc long before a
run develops.
if im doing short overnighters i often use lumps of paste rather than boilies as they breakdown much faster leaking attraction off much better.
hope this helps, anything else, message me.
Thanks for the advice mate :thumbs:
niknak8888
02-11-2008, 22:32
had a few more sessions with biggest couple being 3 and 1/2 lbs (chub). Heard of a 6lb barbel caught from penshurst aswell.
NorfolkBob
21-11-2008, 11:38
here's Thames' 28lb Medway river kipper!
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q63/norfolkbob/mark.jpg
British1st
23-11-2008, 21:14
Cracking fish, well done.
Went pikeing on tonbridge stretch today lost one other than that very slow.
niknak8888
29-11-2008, 21:22
was that on the RTWAS or the TDAFPS? (both tonbridge clubs)
British1st
30-11-2008, 11:19
was that on the RTWAS or the TDAFPS? (both tonbridge clubs)
It was the TDAFPS section , the end of the shallows, which with all the rain latly arnt quite so shallow :lol:
here's Thames' 28lb Medway river kipper!
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q63/norfolkbob/mark.jpg
Thanks Bob
Sorry its a crud picture, its off a phone
Lol.......... It was a mug mate, must have been to let me catch it.
All it kept doing was singing "im forever blowing 3 points" on the mat
Did it escape from Darenth ? :D
Lol
Yes............... And its name was Piere
Nice fish Mark..........well in.
Nice fish,looks like the Little Leney from the pit.
bivvybound
28-12-2008, 10:33
i has seen some good 20's in the medway stretch topped by a good sized koi carp which had to be around the 20lb mark, i know there are 30's in the maidstone stretch.
i has seen some good 20's in the medway stretch topped by a good sized koi carp which had to be around the 20lb mark, i know there are 30's in the maidstone stretch.
20 years ago mate the Town stretch was always the one, all the older bigger fish used to frequent that part. If you look at the rest of the Medway (flows through countryside), and you was a carp, where would you go? Constant food, there used to be a hot water outflow as well that kept them down there, and the flood barrier stops them going any further. The koi's you see (and theres LOADS of them) aswell as 99% of the carp are from a certain carp puddle that lost vitually all its millions of stock into the river many moons ago. These are what killed all the originals (such a shame). Thing is the gits have now grown, and very well to. Theres now some good fish in Medway again, and apart from the town stretch NO ONE fishes it.
bivvybound
28-12-2008, 12:25
i have fished the town stretch well more the malta end and seen alot of good carp there, i know what you mean about the koi and where they came from, a shame i know, but you cant hold back a flooded river so no way to avoid what happened.
Hi
Newbie to The Forum here although have been lurking for a while.
Having just moved from London to Tunbridge Wells would be interested to get any information on The Stretches of Medway controlled by TDAFPS.
In particular what one could expect to catch on The section behind Barden Lake. ie Shallows/New cut and also in and around The Sportsground.
Cheers and tight lines
Zeph
Theres carp all through there mate, there are better stretches though.
Tonbridge have some nice bits, go have a walk round.
If its not carp your after the bits your talking about also contain all the usual suspects, bream, roach, chub, perch, bleak, pike.
Thanks TCarper.
Interested in all species really.
Have walked a bit of the Tonbridge stretch over the last couple of weeks and there are some real nice looking stretches.
Plenty more areas to check out though.
Do you know anything atall about Hartlake?
No sorry i dont.
Lovely river, if you have no luck, try the many weir pools or their surrounding areas, very good for roach and chub.
Hi mate
I did quite a lot of sessions on the Hartlake stretch last year. It can be quite tough, especially when its a bright day.
There are some good fish there though. My PBs during 2008 from this stretch were carp to 14lb, tench to 5lb, chub to 5lb, bream to 7lb, roach to 1.5lb and perch to 1lb.
There are some very big pike of at least 20lb (keepnets are regularly attacked so I have given up using one) and the bailiff told me of a couple of small barbel coming out of one section.
Swims seem to vary in quality during the season and one that produces well on one session often seems to be a complete disaster a week or two later - so I've taken to cutting down on the kit and using a roving approach.
As far as baits go, all the usual work but maggots, caster and small bits of worm will be grabbed by the hundreds of bleak, gudgeon and ruffe in this stretch so I've stopped using them altogether.
Matches are never the best guide to what is out there but typically on the Hartlake stretch they are won with 8-10lb of small roach and chub - as I said, the fishing can be hard.
The summer and autumn saw a worrying increase in poaching on this section - seems to be mostly the pike and perch that are being targeted and removed. Have reported this to the EA when I came across it and the Tonbridge club are now taking more steps to prevent it.
Another problem outside the winter period is the boat traffic, especially in the summer - canoeists from the local club are a particular problem when they suddenly appear close to the bank. They often don't see the anglers (especially if we are trying to avoid being seen by the fish) and I've nearly had my rods dragged in on a couple of occasions.
RE canoeists on the Medway..............................
Ouuuuuuuuuuu they love a few pouchfuls of maggots wriggling about in their boats, some of them do it deliberately mate, not when they've been maggot ed a couple of times, this seems to learn them quite quickly.
Having had the rain and flooding in January, we've now had the snow. Just been down the river for a look around. Water is up and coloured but not moving too fast. Guessing that the snow-melt (and maybe some salt washed off the roads) will keep things cold and the fishing tough. Will let things settle for a few days and plan to be back on the bank in a week or so.
Anyone been out on the river in the past few weeks?
niknak8888
08-02-2009, 20:02
Alrite spiggy,
Was actually out today with a mate (as i just needed to go fishing!!) and the place i was planning on going originally (a small lake near fordcombe) was closed!! so went to haysden to see what there was and blanked... then decided to try the river at six arches bridge even though it was nasty looking, and blanked! o well wasnt really expecting much looking at the state of the river tbh!! last thing i had out though was a 3.5 - 4lb chub from the penshurst stretch which was in december!! am just waiting for the colour to drop out now... Do you know where the best bits for big ish bream generally are and if you can still get em at this time of year?? Also where do you tend to go at this time of year and wats ur main quarry? sorry Lots of questions just interested about the tdafps bits as have mainly stuck to penshurst! cheers
Nick
Hey Nick
Sorry to hear about the blank but conditions have been pretty desperate. Had a look at the river today and its slowing down and dropping after the floods from the start of the week. Colour should begin dropping out over the weekend and next Monday and Tuesday look very promising 9-10°C during the day and about 5°C overnight. So I'm planning to be out on one of those days.
As for your bream question. I've had a several bream from a number of swims both above and below Hartlake Bridge - generally size is 2-4lb with a few larger. Mostly seem to come mid-river in sections of at least 6 feet deep. I have usually used feeder and pellet with an 11mm pellet on a hair. Having said that I usually go after them in spring and summer and I'm not sure how good a pellet would be in the colder water.
By reputation (never fished there myself), there is a very large shoal of bream usually located where the muck stream (Botany stream) enters the river close to the Cemex works.
Hope to be out early next week myself but will probably do a roving session for chub.
Will let you know how I get on.
Cheers
niknak8888
14-02-2009, 18:08
aha cheers,
ye monday and tuesday do look more promising, looks like there could be a bit of rain though :brick: ! i have also heard of the apparently big bream shoal at the muck stream but still havent gone after them yet. have to say i got put off hartlake as i got it confused with wallers haven so have never tried it but from what you've said it sounds really good!! Cant wait to have a go there. Do you ever pick up carp there in winter??
Nick
niknak8888
18-02-2009, 21:19
Had a go today where the shallows comes into the main river for pike and nothing. looked good but i think the pike just werent having it. the bailiff said there were a few out of there recently though so maybe they just werent hungry today!! could have been the warm spell?... Anyone ever had any luck there?
Also has anyone been out recently on any other bits? have you managed to get out yet spiggy??
Nick
Hey Nick,
Planned to be out at Hartlake on Sunday but took a look early doors and it was still too up and coloured for my liking. Stayed home and did some long-overdue sorting out of reel line, end tackle etc.
As family were away with the rels. for part of half term, I went to Monk Lakes on Monday for a confidence booster and caught my first ever barbel (not sure whether or not to be happy or sad - lovely fish, wrong type of venue). Anyway, good mixed bag of bream (mostly), tench and carp, including a nice ghost carp to corn/method and boilie/pellet bag as well as the barbel. So confidence is up for a return to the river. As far as I am concerned commercials are only good for boosting confidence.
As for your question about winter carp from the river; I have never had one and have not heard of any coming out until Spring from the Tonbridge stretches but I stand to be corrected by someone else out there.
Hope to grab a few hours on the river on Sunday afternoon.
Cheers
Spig
niknak8888
20-02-2009, 16:46
Fair enough! Ye i also had a confidence booster on a lake very near me (after my blank on the river!!) where apparently you don't catch in winter but managed to pull out 2 carp around 6 lb which put up a hell of a fight on light tackle! I was on there for about 4 hrs and they both came within 40 mins of each other.
nick_allen
20-02-2009, 19:31
hi all im a bit of a newb on here altho i joined in 02, t_carper thats a nice fish mate! me and some friends fished the medway on off for 4yrs while i was living near by. seen some absolute beautys in there and have been lucky enough to bank a few, we fished plenty of different locations between tonbridge and maidstone. definitely wasnt easy fishing and landed plenty of roach,chub,bream,pike etc in between the few carp and had fair few blanks. definitely worth a good go though, had fish on maize and a few of the top. think im going to have a dabble this year again... got few pics but not sure how to post them
niknak8888
21-02-2009, 21:03
hi there mate, well done on the fish! did you ever go above the tonbridge lock or was it only further down? from what a lot of the guys on here say it seems very good indeed above it with some very big kois!! Can't wait to have a proper go for the carp now as i have finally got some carp rods and tackle!! Also TCarper a very belated well done on the fish:clap: . lol VERY belated well done :bonk: !!
A short (2hr) session on the river yesterday afternoon produced seven chub between 3/4 lb and 2 1/2 lb on cheesepaste with bread-crumb in the feeder . Second rod using luncheonmeat didn't produce a knock.
Saturday 28th Feb. Another short session. River flowing slowly, a warm night and lots of cloud - should have been a killer morning session. But tried three swims and only got a single bite - that was on paste, nothing at all on worm. Five of us were out on the river and managed only one chub between us. That's the Medway for you. Temperature did drop rapidly during the morning. Maybe that was it but not convinced.
niknak8888
28-02-2009, 21:39
sorry to hear that! thats fishing i spose! was that on hartlake? other session sounded great though! its amazing the difference in a few days!! managed one chub of about a lb last saturday but thats it.
Yes, it was out on Hartlake. Temperature continued to drop all day - so maybe the fish were just ahead of the game. Hope to get in 2-3 more sessions before the 15th.
niknak8888
01-03-2009, 23:14
just had a session today went down as i saw someone fishing and he was catching a few and suggested i got the rods out for a few hours so about 3:30 i got down the river and had nothing until about 5:40 then i had a right rip round bite followed by a 4 and 1/2lb chub! my pb yeesss!! (penshurst)
Well done mate thats a big old chub for the Medway.
The tieese (spelling) is superb for them, bigguns as well, flows into the beult
Top man NikNak! I stayed in to watch the cup final - clearly made the wrong choice.
Barney Rubble
03-03-2009, 12:25
Hi all :wave:
Newbie here
Took a quick look at the river before work after all that rain last night - it is now well up, very brown and moving thro at a pace. Looks like the fishing will be poor for a few days. Forecast suggests that the weekend will be warmer though so hopefully the river will have fined down enough for some sport - time is running out.
Barney Rubble
04-03-2009, 12:27
Hi,
When you say well up do you mean top of the banks or just a few feet from normal levels ?
Hi all :wave:
Newbie here, just wondering if anyone on here fishes the Upper Medway ?
Fished all of it fella, depends what your after, if its carp, bottom end is far better, if its wanting to meet the barbel police (lol), then upper reaches are the one.
Downstream of the Leigh barrier the river is up level with the top of the banks tonight and belting through.
niknak8888
04-03-2009, 22:30
Cheers guys! think the biggest i've heard of (chub) from the bit i fish is 5 and 1/2. would love to get that! ye hopefully the river dont stay too high! time really IS running out! Just plain selfish of the rain if you ask me!!
niknak8888
04-03-2009, 22:35
Well done mate thats a big old chub for the Medway.
The tieese (spelling) is superb for them, bigguns as well, flows into the beult
Cheers mate, and the teise (;) :thumbs: lol) sounds good might have to give it a go next or possibly this season!
Barney Rubble
05-03-2009, 08:31
Fished all of it fella, depends what your after, if its carp, bottom end is far better, if its wanting to meet the barbel police (lol), then upper reaches are the one.
Thanks TCarper :thumbs: , yer the barbel just wanted to know if anyone on here fishes that part of the Medway,i've had carp up that top end as you say but only small ones :brick:
By the way river was only 4ft from going over the top from when i saw it at around 2pm
River below the barrier is still up but much slower this morning and weather forecast suggests that conditions may be okay over the weekend: temperature up and only light rain so river should be fining down nicely.
Barney Rubble
05-03-2009, 20:32
Anyone been out taking advantage of the colour ?
niknak8888
05-03-2009, 21:42
Hi all :wave:
Newbie here, just wondering if anyone on here fishes the Upper Medway ?
Alrite mate,
by upper medway d'you mean fordcombe or further up still?
Barney Rubble
05-03-2009, 23:30
Yes that stretch there mate :thumbs:
Barney Rubble
06-03-2009, 20:03
Anyone got a river report ?
niknak8888
06-03-2009, 22:59
o rite ye, thts suposed to b amazing 4 barbel, what people have already said! havent been out over the last couple of days river too daunting for me! hopefully over the weekend it shld be better though!
Barney Rubble
06-03-2009, 23:40
Oh, so you don't fish that part Niknak ?
Walked along the River at Hartlake yesterday selecting some swims, fining down nicely but still some flow. I reckon should be just about right come Sunday and plan to be out on it all day. Tight lines guys
niknak8888
07-03-2009, 23:26
Oh, so you don't fish that part Niknak ?
nah, i stick to penshurst and tonbridge further downstream as they are literally a few minutes walk if that away from me! maybe next season will think of joining as would love to get my first barbel!
Barney Rubble
08-03-2009, 00:07
I have heard that they are a few barbel down in the penhurst stretch, i don't know how far up stream you fish or even if you belong to penhurst club but the only problem i did hear is that penhurst club don't allow night fishing on the river .
niknak8888
08-03-2009, 18:36
yes i am a member of penshurst, there are barbel, but they are very elusive i think. when one gets caught it is quite talked about, i have actually hooked into one downstream of ensfield bridge but it snapped off! well you never know maybe i'll manage to hook a few from down there.
no they don't allow night fishing. i've never actually felt the need to do any though to be honest as i've never targeted the barbel, but do nights tend to be better d'you think?
Well guys, wasn't quite the day I had in mind today - the rain last night meant that the automatic locks were opening and closing so the flow wasn't constant and the stiff breeze today also made it tough. Caught a few chub to 1.5 lb on paste (maybe 4lbs total) - a switch to maggots just produced gudg. On the water at 7 but had had enough by 1 having moved swims as well. But maybe it wasnt too bad - the Tonbridge club also had a match on that stretch and the two guys that I chatted with were struggling to catch bleak. It'll be interesting to see what the winning weight was.
Anyone else out at the weekend?
Might be good for us all to have a round-up of the ups and downs of this season and then think about starting a new thread for 2009/10 season. What do you think?
niknak8888
08-03-2009, 22:41
well ur session was better than mine spiggy!!... i went out with my dad today starting at about 2 for an afternoon session and put 1 rod together then got literally blasted off the bank by gale force winds closely followed by rain. my bloody chair fell in!! lol. decided to call it a day immediately!! was a funny old day today it was fine this morning but a bit windy then at around 1 it clouded over and then by 2:30 it was a nightmare with wind and rain!! oh well, hoping to have a last ditch attempt at some piking next saturday and i hope the river dont get too much more rain!!!
think having a round up wld be a great idea! will post mine when i have recalled everything from this season.
nick
Barney Rubble
09-03-2009, 08:35
yes i am a member of penshurst, there are barbel, but they are very elusive i think. when one gets caught it is quite talked about, i have actually hooked into one downstream of ensfield bridge but it snapped off! well you never know maybe i'll manage to hook a few from down there.
no they don't allow night fishing. i've never actually felt the need to do any though to be honest as i've never targeted the barbel, but do nights tend to be better d'you think?
It's a shame penhurst don't allow night fishing on the river, it would draw move anglers to the club if they did so :thumbs:
Yes mate the nights are alot better for the barbel on the medway, they seem to feel alot safer after dark mate, even when the rivers got good colour like it has at the moment or even in flood .
niknak8888
09-03-2009, 22:03
Ye, prob would bring more anglers in, but i quite like the small club feel of it tbh!
Thats interesting!! Now i know why people do it!
Barney Rubble
10-03-2009, 12:17
Anyone got a river report after last nights heavy rain ?
Barney Rubble
10-03-2009, 23:45
Anyone ?:confused:
Having decided that last weekend's poor showing would be my last river outing of the season AND having replaced the river stuff in my tackle box with stillwater kit, I just can't resist the look of Friday for one last outing on the Medway. According to the Met Office, wind will be quite light and south-westerly, temperature should hold up overnight on Thursday and it'll be around 12°C and cloudy on Friday.
So, think I'll have to re-sort my kit again tonight - for one last session - thinking about doing a rover above and below Hartlake Bridge.
The plan for a look-back and summary of the last river season will have to wait in the hope that a few PBs might change.
Barney - took a look at the river thro Tonbridge today, despite the heavy rain yesterday pm it is not particularly fast or heavily coloured.
Barney Rubble
11-03-2009, 18:43
Thanks Spiggy :clap:
Hope your lucky mate :thumbs:
Not long now :cry:
Definitely the last day of my river season. A near-disaster but with a twist in the tail.
I was really confident today - the weather felt right, I felt right and even the river seemed to be welcoming. Had decided to fish three swims - two new and one an old friend - thought I'd try 3 hours on each.
First was a nice bend upstream of Hartlake Bridge and upstream of Porter's Lock. Far bank overhangs, nice flow - really felt like it would be the Drogba's Ballacks. But I fished it really hard - cheesepaste with crumb in the feeder, small fishy boilies, float with maggot and got a few taps on the boilies and a small chub on the paste, Had had enough by 11, so left one hour early and moved downstream to a swim at the start of the lock section.
This swim just didn't feel right from the start - the river was definitely not talking to me any more. A tap on the paste and that was it. So by 1 o'clock I decided to move to the swim I knew well, below Hartlake Bridge.
Was not encouraged by the four (or so) guys that I passed who were either blanking or struggling to catch small stuff. Had myself set up by around 1.30 and quickly had a small chub on paste. Action had been so slow that I had put out a sleeper rod with pellet and had tried baiting the mid-river in the hope of bream. Was rewarded by 2pm with a 3lb 13oz slab.
But then that was it - the other guys packed up one by one and had gone by 4.30. I decided to stay, as past experience had shown me that dusk was best, at least in summer and autumn. At around 5, my quivertip pulled gently round - not a big bite, maybe only a couple of inches of movement. Struck and I was into what felt like a reasonable fish. It stayed low without ever putting on any bursts but was not going to be brought in easily. I'd ruled out bream but could not make out what it might be as it continued to stay low and powerful but without any bursts of speed. The when it was finally drawing close to the bank but still unseen, it made a strong dive for the near-side overgrowth - so that made it a chub or one of the river's tench.
Soon after, it surfaced and was in the net - a 4lb 13oz chub - my second largest from the Medway.
That was enough for me and I decided to end my 2008/9 river season with that lovely fish.
If anyone is out tomorrow for last knockings - then tight lines guys!
Barney Rubble
13-03-2009, 21:44
Well done Spiggy, great way to end your season :clap: :clap:
Barney Rubble
15-03-2009, 00:21
Hi all, just got back from the river, felt very mild out there tonight with plenty of fish movement going on,tried many swims with pellet and meat as a hook bait and finally came good with a chub of 5lb 1oz and a small barbel of 7lb 15oz, nice end to the season :D :D
Roll on the 16th :norty:
niknak8888
15-03-2009, 01:45
ok heres the sum up of the season. well done spig and barney!! better than my last day - blank!! on the first cast had a pike jump over my bait 4 times (it must have been blind as it missed every time!) as my deadbait fluttered up to the surface and no bite followed!!! aaarghhh!! o well at least my last fish was a pb!
August – 3lb chub on half a lamprey (my first ever chub. Only moved back to the UK with a new love for fishing February last year and initially stuck to stillwater)
September – First few chub from elliott’s. Disaster day – lost barbel, snagged about 10 times + lost carp!!!
October – More nice chub (for me) to 2.5lbs, then another disaster day when the river was right up with loads of flow and carrying LOADS of debris and leaves etc – tip going round every 1 second from a leaf (or several)!!
November – what seemed like endless rain only on the days just before I wanted to get on the river!!! Awful luck… blank month I think
December – broke my pb chub by 1lb making it around 4lb the day before Xmas!! At the end of the months rain and floods stopping any fishing at all.
January – blank month and MORE flooding
February – MORE flooding in early part and another blank month. Had a go for pike on the shallows and blank.
March – finally some rays of hope – no flooding or too much rain!!! + New pb chub of 4.5lb!! Last day of the season – Blank!!!
Nice one Barney, sorry about your last day Niknak.
Will try and get a season's summary done tonight
niknak8888
22-03-2009, 20:13
Just seen a few people "angling" down from ensfield bridge. couldnt stop but really irritated me. called up the club secrtary and when he got there they were gone. didnt appear to be using outdated/unsafe rigs, but i only got a quick look and i doubt any anglers would be out on the close. angred me a lot as it is my local stretch so kind of took it personally
Barney Rubble
23-03-2009, 00:13
That's bang out of order mate the seasons only just closed a week ago and theres idiots fishing it already :mad: :mad: :brick:
Barney Rubble
19-04-2009, 23:46
I had a wander along the river today, river looked in tip top shape with a lovely deep brown colour with great pace after all the rain we have had :thumbs:
Bring on the 16th :norty:
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