View Full Version : The British thing
jimrawcliffe
02-02-2001, 00:24
I've been reading, as many of us have about ECHO and the fantastic support the subject has received. You can't help but notice the comments all over the press about this strong felt feeling towards something British but I wonder how many people feel the same way about other imports. For example all the cheap and copied imported items of tackle. Has anyone stopped for a moment to think that every time a piece of gear comes in from China or India that it's a Brit that is being done out of a job! Could it be your job next? There are plenty of us manufacturers making kit in the UK.
One of the things that is really beggining to worry me is the appearance of very cheap bait. I've heard all sorts of scary stories about the stuff and what might go into it. I know that we at Tails Up can't buy the ingredients for our baits, let alone make and sell them for the money these baits are sold for. Where the Hell is it going to stop. You must remember, that every time a new "cheap" shop starts up about ten close as a result of not being able to compete. Trouble is that most of these shops are the traditional street corner place that sold maggots, hooks and floats to us when we were kids. Where are your kids going to buy these bits. And if the next generation can't buy the bits they won't take up fishing! The likelihood of the cheap shops hanging around for the next generation is very remote. They just want to make a fast buck and then **** *** (go away)
It has to be said that many things that come from abroad are of very good quality. Our lives are surounded by them, cars, clothes, Hi-fi etc but don't forget we used to make all of these things here and there was a pride about owning something that said "made in Britain".
Is it simply a matter of price or does quality count?
Jim Rawcliffe
DarrenWilson
02-02-2001, 00:36
Well said Jim.
I couldn't agree more with you. It is a sad thing that everyone is price orientated. I used to work in the PC industry and nearly every customer used to coment that our prices were more expensive than <insert Mail order company here>. They used to then buy the bits from the Mail order company and expect us as the local shop to support the bits!! U can probably guess what the answer to that one was?!!
Same goes for the Tackle industry. You have the Mail Order companies selling imported gear at silly prices and you also have the Large manufacturers buying a lot of their gear from teh Far east because they know that the British won't pay the extra for British made goods. How many Brits do you know that would work for £5 a month? That is what a lot fo the Sweat Shops pay their staff for 17 hours a day work, because they have no way of feeding themselves otherwise. If the British angling fraternity got their act together and stopped being a little bit less tight with their money then we would see better quality items than we are seeing now at the same prices. I know I would pay that little bit extra myself for a British made item than a cheap imported POS that will pack up or not perform properly after a few month suages (if you are lucky). Same goes for bait. Why skimp on it?? It has been written so many times that the cheap baits could indeed be harmful to the fish due to the preservatives (non human grade) used. We, as anglers spend all this money on unhooking mats and other carp welfare equipment, then the minority (normally the pure Instant Experts who have the top of the range everything) buying 5K of Shelf Lifes for £10 and then they wonder why they don't catch!!!! Give me quality bait over the best ear any day of the week!
I may have sour grapes being unemployed and the little Indian lad working his fingers to the bone for a fiver (he has a bloody job always the same isn't it???), but hey English Tackle Manufacturers, fancy employing a Brit to make your gear for once????
Darren Wilson
Co-Webmaster
The Carpers Lodge
Rivercarper
02-02-2001, 04:24
A very good point Jim.I know of one British manufacturer who had to take his tackle to the European shows because of the far east copies of their products.The shop owners over there thought his stuff was the copies,untill put right of course.
rhornegold
02-02-2001, 06:33
Jim,
I could not agree with you more, I use Harrison rods for most of my fishing and cant fault them.
They are made in Britain by British worker thus creating jobs for British workers, a number of big tackle firms import there rods from the far east.
OK they make some nice gear, but what did it cost to make,import and then add on a profit.
As you said many small tackle shops are going bust because they cannot compete with the cheap imports and mail order.
Trying to keep it British, if you can find out where it's made.
Bob Hornegold<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by rhornegold on 02/02/01 06:35 AM.</FONT></P>
Derby_Neil
02-02-2001, 08:41
I do totally agree with what your saying here Jim, BUT...
Unfortunately we do not all have a fortune to and spend on gear, I for one consider my fishing as the greatest thing I have in my life, but I would not put it in front of paying my mortgage and bills !
It would be nice to buy top notch gear that undoubtedly will last a lot longer than some of the cheaper imported stuff, but I can't always afford to do that, so sometimes I have to buy cheaper gear and replace it more often, that way I don't have to shell out so much money at one go.
In a perfect world and all that ! just food for thought though.
I have supported my local tackle shop for 14 years and the point of where will we buy our maggots etc...is a good one.
He struggles though and why?...because he is more expensive than mail order......why?
It's because he has limited space so he will sell a rod at RRP.
He will for various reasons chip a bit off........but the manufacturer must not know that as he's not allowed to do this!(never mind the fact that he has lost a bit of his profit margin!).......Why then,do the manufacturers deliver HUGE amounts to a mail order company and allow them to sell it at half price?!!!!.....how can a tackle shop compete with that?..(he will match a price advertised else where if he can).
He survives by selling bait,but that won't pay the bills.When he goes.......where do I and others buy their humble maggots?
Now the hypocitical bit.......I have bought mail order...simply because it is so much cheaper....I don't have the money to pay the top whack on everything,but still manage to spend HUNDREDS of pounds a year in his little shop.Surely I am not alone in that I walk in and walk out with another bag of bits & bobs costing £30 that I don't REALLY need....am I?!!
Be careful with the foreign thread.......if the British industry could make their goodies and sell them to us at the same price as they do by importing.....they would!!!
Match the price......get the sale!
Business is business..nearly everything you buy is sourced from abroad be it just a component.
Good point from Jim about the bait ingredients...who would know better than him about the price of quality in bait?
Sorry if I have upset someone somewhere......but I really believe that smoe tackle shops are on the way out...what am I going to spend,(waste!),my money on then?!!
Smarts
cheap imports are not new.
my company have opened a sister factory in china where the average monthly wage is £30. this is because the cost of living is low. *not* that the locals work for pittance. we make an *identical* product range there, for much less.
for example, a can of coke may cost 50p here, but it will cost sonsiderably less in china.
punters want items, when they want them, at the cheapest price. failing that, lead time is the next consideration.
for my job i optimise the manufacturing process. by eliminating waste in companies, i help reduce the cost of british manufacturing. when you consider that the 319 days it takes for a can of coke to reach the shop shelves, 8 of which add value to the product, you can see why we are bing ripped off for *everything*. would you pay a fiver more because a product you want has been sitting on a shelf for a month?
nor would i, but we do.
global sourcing now means you can get cheap parts. even though it is "made in england" all the components and machinery may indeed be foriegn. even the workers!
the only difference in being made abroad is the labour rate. cheap labour means cheaper priced products. quality is another issue for another website forum.
keep it cheap and nasty!
**sam**
CarponlineEditor
02-02-2001, 21:20
Ahhh maybe so Ian, but what about those items that you can get for half the price somewhere and the are exactly the same product. You cant tell me that the expensive one is better than the cheap one if they are the same product can you?
I only mention this because a mate of mine who owns a tackle shop is always going nuts about certain mail order companies that can sell the same stuff as he has in his shop for much less, he reckons that the main reason is as one of the posts above states that the manufacturers will sell cheaper to a company that orders bulk whereas when he buys stuff from say Daiwa they tell him that he cannot sell it cheaper than £X if he does they will not supply him anymore. Smells of the big fish getting one over on the little ones to me.
Slightly off tangent here but for those of you who are saying that foreigners have jobs while the brits dont in the fishing trade. Would any of you saying this work for peanuts just to do the work? I don't mean for £30 quid a month or whatever the foreigners get but for say the minimum wage. Most of us are out for what we can get whether it be as much pay for our work as we can get or tackle as cheap as we can get it for if it is good quality. That is one of the facts of life.There are not many people I know who would pay say double for the exact item just because it has a british made sticker on it.
And as for those who say all about buying british, have you got any shimano, daiwa, etc etc tackle in your posession? That is foreign goods too.
lol Lets see who I've wound up this time.
Andy
Just have a look at what the Americans pay for the same goods we are buying, Braid, Rods, reels etc..... we are being exploited by our own tackle dealers... until we realise that and we all get into shopping around *worldwide* we are going to be ripped off unfortunately. I paid £18 including post for a fly line that costs £45 here.... the dealers will be enlightened soon especially in the Carp angling world.
Well said Andy mate
Tony<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by scorpio on 02/02/01 09:35 PM.</FONT></P>
Hi Andy,
I think that one of the *other* factors that allows the mailorder companies to sell cheaper is they don't have to pay for shop frontage...
Bill.
CarponlineEditor
02-02-2001, 21:45
Hiya Billy,
Yes thats true enough. But I still think that if most of us are honest about it we would rather pay a cheaper price for exactly the same goods if we could, no matter where it came from.
jimrawcliffe
02-02-2001, 22:10
Well I'm going to struggle to stay away from the advertising thing here but this is where marketing turns into the truth rather than the kind of bull**** we are all so used to hearing these days.
By the way, thanks Ian for your kind support but as you know and in answer to the previous reply, I can quite confidentally state that the answer is YES. Our bags are better than ANYTHING out there. Snug Pak indeed. If only you understood how big an insult that is. I designed the Goliaths about 15 years ago. We ONLY use the best materials available. The design of the bag and construction takes this product into another dimension. I'm not just dreaming here. It's a scientific fact. Which is more than ANY of the copies can say. The funny thing is that after all said and done our bags are actually cheap for what they offer. Why the Hell do you think just about everybody in the trade has one?! Skiddy, Lee Jackson, Shelley, Richworth, Korda etc, the list is quite staggering and frankly makes me very proud. I'm sorry to have to go into one here but this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's getting to the stage where you can't make a good product. When you try, loads of unscruplous copying merchants rip you off and make the same claims which of course are not true. But then who's going to check?
Where is the official body to check on good and bad workmanship. And if the "cheap at any cost" brigade get their way we'll all be down the dole office. Market forces indeed. That's a Thatcher sound bite. I remember it well. It's just the sort of catch phrase that the "stack em high flog em cheap" brigade love to hear. It's music to their ears. Market forces are governed by the people ie you and me brother. And if you want crap kit made by children in forced labour then fine but I shall continue to make only THE VERY BEST, IN BRITAIN , BY BRITS. And you know what, I'm very proud of that. I'm not a racist. I'm definately not a misguided conservative either. But I am proud of what this country and it's people are capable of given half a chance and I was really [censored word] off when Thatcher took that away from us. She single handedly stripped away our nations pride so as to divide and rule without any fear of reprisal. Before she arrived we built the best of everything. Maybe you don't remember what "made in Britain" meant. It meant everybody wanted one! I.E. Market forces!
Just remember, it's really easy to let things slide but it's very hard to get them back. Let's all get together and stop settling for second best all the time. You don't have to have it all in an instant. Some things are worth saving up for.
This thing is not just about fishing tackle. It's about everything in our society. It's driven solely by profit. It's absolutely true that the Chinese make things for pennies. But who's making the big bucks!
All I want to do is make a reasonable living and support my family. If I can keep the customers happy and contented at the same time, it makes it all worthwhile. Many manufacturers don't give a damn and I think that's very sad but indicative of the society in which we live.
The only way things are going to change, is if we make them.
The next big topic in this whole saga is going to be bait. Now that's something we must all be wary of. The crap and I mean crap, that's coming into this country from Europe needs serious scrutiny. I mean, it's only in the last few years that other nations have started putting them back! They call it English style. If this stuff starts going into our waters then our fish are going to suffer. Ask yourself, what could they put in a bait that's going to be of any benefit to a Carp, and sell for £9 for 5kg!!!!!!! More to the point, a manufacturer AND a retailer have to make a profit out of this nine quid!
I can't wait to hear your replies guys
Jim Rawcliffe
....mmmm....War & Peace.....
Here is a reply..... Petrol? what a load of [censored word]????? You can't run down polititions on one side if the other drop you in it. As for "Carp fishing tackle" the main dealers are expoiting everyone for a quick buck, just like designer label clothes. I can't vouch for you or your company Jim, I am talking in general. Taxes........ why do so many people go abroad for their goods, illegal imports?? Why can I buy a European product in America for the fraction of the price it costs here, is it because they don't fish for Carp? Not only tackle but many other products. The governments are all as bad as each other no matter who is in power. Greed, sleeze the lot.... this country is at it's knees mate and we are mostly all to blame.
Tony
jimrawcliffe
02-02-2001, 22:28
Wow,
you'd think after that I'd need a rest but hey!
Mail order; We do it but our prices are exactly the same as the retailers. Why, because I don't want corner shops to go bust basically.
Importing from the states etc: Don't forget the strength of the currency, shipping charges, differing working practices and market sizes, a market with 250 million people is a lot safer bet.
Selling the same product for different prices; Buying power ie the big man forcing the small man down, or the best way to end up with a monopoly. A good reason maybe for returning to fixed prices. After all that guaranteed stability of trade. (Pre Thatcher). The monopoly thing is a good one. How would you all feel for example if you could only buy bait and sleeping bags from Tails Up! Pretty upset I bet. But all I'd have to do is find a money lender, drop our prices to rediculous levels so that eveyone else has to close and then clean up. Can't you see this already happening? I love competiton for just that reason. Hey I'd even go so far as to say I hope that dear old Nutrabaits and Richworth keep going for a very long time!!!
Jim
CarponlineEditor
03-02-2001, 12:35
Hmmmm I wasnt meaning your products Jim, as from what I have heard they are the Bee's knees. But as you say they are only available from outlets that you choose.
I meant those products that can be bought either from the local tackle shop at say £100 or you can buy the exact same product from say the states or a mail order only company for say £60, which one do you think most anglers would go for? It is just a simple fact that most of us are either tight with our money or skint enough so that we have to go to these firms or we couldnt buy the gear at all.
Most of my fishing tackle is either second hand or bought by some sort of deal as I am single with three kids. If everything was only available through the local tackle shop then I wouldnt be able to go fishing at all.
I am honestly not having a go at anyones quality here, as I try not to buy rubbish for obvious reasons but when you can get hold of item x for around half the price then I would have to go for it.
Andy
The best form of advertising is word of mouth without a shadow of a doubt. There are a lot of people out there who would pay more for a product if the quality is there, a long replacment gaurentee is also a good selling point. Unfortunately the way the Carp angling market is going is more for name than quality. Obviously the main tackle companies are international, it is lucky that we are an island for the governments point of view. If we were not we could just go over the border for our goods at a much reduced price and there fore the companies in this country would be at a loss.
If you keep the quality of your goods to the best you can and the price no more than 20% more than the same products elsewhere people will shout about how good the product is, just look how your baits are being advertised just on this site.
Best of luck with the business mate.
Tony
I generally try to be uncontroversial when confronted by views or statements which are poor enough to be ignored, but bold enough to warrant comment - so here goes.....
What a load of inaccurate, ill-informed, politically biased, commercially naive drivel. I strongly suggest you revisit your political history before you blame Thatcher for all things bad with British manufacturing.
Your company may well produce a quality product, but that is not enough in a competitive, increasingly global marketplace. Indeed there is a real danger that products can be over-engineered; understand your market being the key here.
As for this nonsense about forced third world labour! The sad truth is that we seem to be a nation that somehow expects to be able to stand still, while the rest of the world comes to us, because of some suposed past (real or imagined) historical supremacy. The reality being that the rest of the world strives to improve it's technology and productivity, and (particularly the far-east) seems to understand it's market so much better. America learned the lesson when confronted by Japan's manufacturing resurgence in the fifties and sixties.
My personal purchasing criteria will always be:
a) Does it do the job I need done, reliably and consistantly?
b) Is it competively priced versus similar products?
c) Is is readily available?
If all of the above are satisfied by both British and foriegn goods, then I will always buy British. The onus is on British companies to understand the market they are selling to, then produce products competively. If they are unable to do both the reality is they will go out of business, sad but true. However the question is will the consumer really suffer as a consequence?
Food for thought re: fit for purpose and price/quality ........
Ratners Jewellery (until he opened his mouth!).
British motorcycle industry (pre-Thatcher).
Hope this is received in the spirit intended, no malice involved at all.
Andy
jimrawcliffe
03-02-2001, 18:32
Hi there Andy
I don't know who you are but you sure are a conservative through and through and if you think you're not you've been brain washed.
There is no malice in this reply either but I don't need to search my political histroy I was there. I'm 47 you see and I fought everything that Thatcher stood for at the time and I shall keep on doing so. The woman and all her cronies destroyed this country and I might add nothing has been done since to restore it.
Innacurate, ill informed, politically biased commercially naive drivel indeed. Sounds to me like you ought to wake up and join the real world before you start insulting me.
This is not about my company or how good our products are. I know where we stand and I'm more than happy about it.
Over engineering products! Hey, so all those British engineers have just wasted their lives for the last few hundred years have they? Why do you think our engineering companies are employed all over the world to build and construct.
I guess you've been living in a box with the lid on, otherwise you would be well aware of the major worldwide problem with child labour. We incidentally did away with it a long time ago in case you hadn't noticed!
Try Gap clothing and their so called America in the south China sea, try Indian carpet making where the children are actually stolen from their families, try talking to the kids who have been lured away to pick coca pods in Africa so that we can eat chocolate, try reading a newspaper or watching the tv but please please don't tell me that I am ill informed. Wake up to the real world. How much do you think the Chinese people are paid for their labour. Not much more than a bowl of rice is the answer. Why were 57 of them found dead in a van last year trying to get over here to the "promised land"
The fact is that a lot of things that come from abroad are great. They are well thought out and well made. I've no problem with that. I know we live in a global market and that the whole free trade thing is upon us but the problem with that is that there are no ground rules. How can we compete with the Chinese, Indians etc, when they are paid so much less than Brits. Our people have mortgages and a standard of living which costs a lot more. Do you suggest that all British companies pack up, sack their staff and say tough luck lads. It sounds as though you do and I find that very worrying and anti British. I'm not suggesting that I have all the answers but I can tell you that if we don't start looking towards our country soon we will end up in deep doo doo very soon. Talk to the lads on the bank like I do. See how many are being made redundant or have been in the last few years. What kind of work do they have now. If you work in IT you will be buffered from this reality. I put myself through a networking course a few years ago and after spending a year in the field I know that to be true. What about all those lads in South Wales. They are productive, cost effective but the company are squeezing as hard as they can.
In answer to some of the other contributors, I totally understand about buying cheap, secondhand, looking for a bargain, and making do. And I hate being ripped off. That's when researching products is so important. It seems we are all to eager to buy the first thing we see these days and if a new somthing comes out we all rush out to buy it. We get people coming in the shop wanting to change perfectly good tackle. I try to convince them to spend the money on bait instead and catch more fish as a result but that's another thing altogether.
So please no more insults just good debate.
Jim Rawcliffe, British and a citizen of the world!
CarponlineEditor
03-02-2001, 19:02
Blimey, I will admit that you two seem to know all about the small wages and bad conditions that the foreign workers have to put up with and I will be one of the first to say that in my opinion it is not really fair on them but there is little that we can do about that and I will leave you two to dispute Mrs Thatchers policies too. lol
I will however state again that even though some products, lets take you sleeping bags Jim, are brilliant from what I have heard, there is no way that I could be made to pay that much for something to keep me warm if I was out fishing at night. Its a bit like when I go food shopping, I will get the own brand corn flakes, the brand name ones might be a bit tastier but the own brand ones are just as good if you are on a tight budget.
Or you could take the choice of buying rods. I havent been able to buy a new rod for years. I have been very lucky in either getting them second hand or because I have been fishing for a long old time now sometimes someone takes mercy on me and when they upgrade I may get their old ones. I could never make myself spend £200 pounds odd on a fishing rod even if it was the best around. I would love to buy british, I rode british bikes for years even though when couriering I had to ride a Suzuki simply because it was far more economical and for ease of zipping around in the traffic it was much better. But for cruising around in my nasty biker gear looking ominous lol My BSA was the nuts. All I was trying to say about all this is very simple.
If you can buy a product at a tackle shop and from someone else at completely different prices, which one would you go for if you were on a tight budget? I reckon that most of us Brits would buy it from the cheapest place.
Andy
jumpseat
03-02-2001, 19:05
"Gentlemen.................start your engines!"
I am with Mr. Rawcliffe on this one. Sounds to me like Jim is in a similar postion to me. Owner and operator of a sucessful multi-million pound business (turnover). Why is he in this position, because like me he knows what he's talking about!! I also suspect that like me the way he did it was to take an idea and make it work, long hard worrying years not being sure you're going to make it work well enough to feed your wife and kids. So Loki unless you are a captain of industry yourself I would be a bit careful what you say to a gentleman like Jim. Hopefully you will post back saying you own Lloyds Bank or something. Won't I look stupid then!!
Cheers
jumpseat
P.S. Any relevant degrees etc.....don't really count in the been there and done it stakes.
Hi Jim, OK lets bring this thing back down to earth. I am not insulting you or your company, and certainly not your products which seem to come highly recommended. You are probably working your nuts off like the rest of us. However, if you post such strong views on a bulletin board you have to expect a reaction. It was your comments I was addressing in my reply.
Until recently I was the Commercial Manager for a 100 year old, £50m turnover British engineering company, which exports it's products all around the world. When I joined the company as an apprentice over twenty years ago it employed over 1500, down on a high in the late 60's of over 2000. This number was eroded by anual redundancy progams to just over 300 when I left. I know what I'm talking about! I am well aware of the harsh realities of modern business.
On the cheap labour issue, no comment. Aware of it, don't agree with it, can't do anything about it, have to live with the commercial consequences though.
The point being made, when you get away from the emotional side of the debate, is that given a choice people will buy adequate products for the least amount of money. The problem for manufacturers and retailers is simply to be competitive on price and quality. Having been at the sharp end I do understand how bloody difficult this is.
I'm not going to revisit our earlier posts except to say that quality usually has a price. Over engineered means too much unnecessary cost in a product, probably due to an over-complicated design masquerading as high quality. Understanding the market, and the demand from it, is the key to providing an adequate product at the lowest price. If you still ain't competitive then you struggle, no matter how unfair it might be.
Andy
ps. I now work, on a self-employed basis, in the building trade - please don't suggest I'm remote from the real world.
Not a captain of industry Jumpseat, and no degree either, lol.
jimrawcliffe
03-02-2001, 20:55
Dear Ed!
Buy your second hand tackle and use it well. I wish more people recycled gear instead of leaving it in the cupboard cause it aint this years colour. But when you need a piece of kit to do the job right..............
I don't want to push our bags but they are a good example. It was actually Paddy Webb of all people who emphasised the point in his three year review of our Combi. His main point was that although cheaper products made from cheaper materials could possibly just about do the job, they wouldn't for long. That's simply due to the fact that the fill we use is much more flexible and has a much longer life making it in fact much cheaper in the long run. This could be applied to many of the products to which I refer. In short, might it be short sighted to buy cheaper items if they don't last. I guess it's like the old saying "you get what you pay for".
It sounds like loki and I could probably reach common ground over a couple of beers! Amazing what talking to each other can do.
I can't see your name at the moment but it sounds like someone else on this list could do with a day off apart from me.
And finally to Coster's Yawn.
Tell me is that a Euro yawn, a Chinese yawn or a good old British one!
Yeah, wake up Coster, this is great stuff!
I'll stand you a beer or two Jim.
Cheers
Andy
CarponlineEditor
03-02-2001, 23:14
Hmmmm Jim do I hear a hint of sarcasm there lol. Just because I get cheaper stuff like second hand doesnt mean that it is of a lower quality. I have my Shimano rods for example, they are one of the best pairs of rods that I have ever used but they were second hand so therefore cheap. Does this mean that they are of a lower quality? I have a Nashy rod bag too, which is many years old but it still does its job admirably, so on that one I would have to admit that quality does last longer than some cheaper imitations.
But, and this is where you seem to have not understood what I am saying, if you can get THE SAME PRODUCT for a lot cheaper than buying it in a tackle shop, then who wouldn't buy it cheap?
I really do agree with you about, for example your sleeping bags, they are quality items from what a couple of my mates have told me and from what you have said and so I believe you. But (and I know one can't get them cheaper) but if one could get your sleeping bags from a mail order company at say two thirds of the price that a tackle shop would sell one then I would have to be daft not to get it from them, wouldnt I?
I will say one thing though, and that is about a bag that I have. I was using a bag that as you rightly say was rubbish but it was cheap and it was from Argos. To be honest when it was cold wintery weather I needed a blanket or two to help me keep warm. So you are right some products even though cheap are rubbish (not all I hasten to add). Anyway, I was at a BCSG fish in and I had had a sleepless night because of this said sleeping bag. I had wandered down to chat with the bloke in the next swim to me and he was throwing this mummy type bag all over the place. I asked him what on earth he was doing and he said that the thing was much too heavy and that he was going to throw it in the bin when he got back to the car park. I asked him if I could have it. I have had that sleeping bag for years now and I tell you (I havent tried one of yours) it is the best one that I have ever tried. It keeps me warm in the coldest conditions. We even put a thermometer on a bank stick one night and in the freezing wind it went down to minus 13 and I was toasty.
Sorry I got off the point. I just meant (and this is no slur on anyones products), that if you can buy product X from a tackle shop at say £50 and you can also buy Product X from somewhere else for say £35 quid, which place would you get it from? These two products are exactly the same, no better or no worse than each other. Exactly the same product. lol Blimey my fingers are aching now. All the best Jim,
Andy
Andy,
Remember it's not quality tackle only that catches fish. I buy my stuff second hand as well. I think the people buying new stuff as a fasion item are great freinds to you and I as we get their stuff for the fraction of the price a year later /images/forum/icons/smile.gif
Tony
'Bleery Eyed'
Most definately a British yawn.
Freedom of speech - it's a wonderful thing!!!
Keep it up guys.
Dave R
CarponlineEditor
04-02-2001, 11:32
Oh yes I agree. A mate of mine who will remain nameless so he dont get any more ribbing lol, has bought about five set ups over the years and then after a few months has got bored and sold the lot. I have had some right bargains before from him.
Oh and Jim I heartily agree about cheaper items sometimes not being up to scratch. Bait for example is not something that I would skimp on just to have it for less money. Bait is sometimes a problem for a lot of us though as there are waters which respond to heavy baiting and unless you either have ties with a bait firm or you are quite well off the thought of the sort of money we are talking here is just too much.
I was round a mates, who owns a bait firm, and he was selling some bait to this chap. When the customer actually got his wallet out to pay my friend I just couldnt believe how many tenners he gave him. Out of my league I am afraid. I will stick to particles and pellets for now and a kilo or two of boilies a week or so.
Quality, yes, yesy, yes but prices can sometimes be found to be a lot lot less.
Andy
I make my own bait from scraps and high protein additives into a paste, & add colours to suit my ideas, red being my favourite I only spend a pittance on bait in a year.... 56lb of hemp, some particles and 56lb of crumb does me for a season. As for hook baits, you know me, keep it natural and all that /images/forum/icons/smile.gif
Tony
jumpseat
04-02-2001, 13:59
Hi Everyone
Loki I certainly wasn't having a go, I think you understand that I wasn't, but just in case sorry. Your credentials are good enough for me mate. Maybe I'll join yourself and Jim for that beer or two. Really get into it!!.
On the other point, I too buy second hand tackle, probably 75% of my gear is, and I keep it forever (even though money isn't too much of an issue for myself, the reason being I'm careful with it)!! Would I buy the identical product for less by mail order, everytime. Adapt or die!!
Sweet dreams
jumpseat /images/forum/icons/laugh.gif
where's the best place to pick up quality 2nd hand gear??
Live in London SW area.
Dave R
Who do you think you are.
Quality - NOT BROKEN OR IN CRAP CONDITION
OKAY!!!!!
Alf mate,
Quality is different for everyone. I have some gear I would class as good quality "FOR ME" others would think it was crap. To be honest you are right when you say the right tool for the right job as to speak. I would class a quality item as something that lasts well and is well built..... for instance I have 2 ABU 506 reels I bought new when I was 11, still as good as the day I bought them and they have taken a right beating from me. A lot of anglers will look at this and think they are a load of rubbish but to me they are quality. Everyone to their own.
Tony
I have recently returned to angling after a long lay-off. As such I have had to buy new gear. By using mail order I have managed to save a minimum of £40 per rod, in one instance over £80, and up to £50 on a reel.
I have some sympathy with my local tackle shops but each of the mail order companies that I have used are local tackle shops to somebody else in another part of the country. They have simply bitten the bullet and accepted that they can maximise their markets by appealing to a nationwide rather than a purely local market and thus achieve quantity discounts from suppliers.
My local tackle shops could do the same thing but are reluctant to commit the capital or time required to join a wider market. Certainly I will suffer if they go out of business as I will have to travel further for bait, hooks etc. but I do not see why I and others like me should be expected to subsidise my local tackle shop to quite such an extent. Whether you call it 'market forces' or 'efficiency' it all amounts to the same thing, those who are prepared to risk an initial investment in stock are likely to be able to sell at lower prices and I for one will be prepared to shop around to get the benefit!
Extend the same principle to a global market and we begin to get a clearer picture of what is happening to the UK tackle industry. We all need to appreciate that British does not always mean best, but nor does foreign always mean cheap!
No offence taken jumpseat, you can join us for a beer anytime. On reflection I might have toned my first response down a bit, lol. Jim can give as good as he takes though!!
The price issue is the easiest to rationalise - if you can buy the same product cheaper via mail order you probably will (other than supporting your local tackle shop, availability is the only reason for paying more for the same product).
The quality issue, when choosing from a range of the same product type, is the hardest to deal with if price is also important to you. It would be easy to simply buy the best of everything - eliminates the quality issue but costs the earth! So to reduce the cost it is important to only buy the product who's quality matches your need - not necessarily the best.
This is where it gets hardest of all - what do you actually need?
jimrawcliffe
05-02-2001, 09:25
No sarcasm whatsoever. I agree with you totally
I`ve been reading through the many posts, on this subject and although i am too young to talk about the Thatcher years, i would say that Product quality in my opinion has fallen this due to the cheap imports from abroad. But not all some are very good. So we have to look after the British companys that are left, they make the quality items and to buy something with "made in Britain" on it is an honour and always will be!
British all the way
Dave
jimrawcliffe
05-02-2001, 09:28
Check ou the papers Carptalk etc. oh and of course this wonderful site. Careful of the 2nd hand shops, you can often pay over the odds. The other problem is buying nicked gear. Beware. Best of luck
jimrawcliffe
05-02-2001, 09:49
Hi there Alf. I think your attitude is highly commendable. Sceptisism is the best approach. It's all very well companies making claims but can they back them up? In our case the answer is yes. It's not technical but our bags have won just about every like for like review there has been. You're right that everyone has their own definition of quality but there is as with everything a common ground, hence the profile of our bag. ( I'm sorry to have to keep refering to our product) As far as a technical body to prove the validity of such claims, there is none. I only wish there was. And this in not a request for someone to start a bogus one! The fact is that we use products such as Qualofil 7, reputed by many in your mountaineering circles to be the biz! We don't advertise this fact it's true. Perhaps we should.
As far as being mail order you're absolutely right we are and always have been but we are also in most of the best retailers in the country! We drop our prices to accomodate this and as a result retail prices are the same in the shops as they are from us. Shocked? We do this because I feel it's important to keep retailers there. Once the shops are gone there will be very little in the way of fishing as we know it!
Please ask you're local retailer to give us a call and we can hopefully oblige.
Maybe you should send for one of our brochures while you're at it.
Finally I should point out that a back street in Stepney could be preferable to a back street in Hong Kong. What's happened to our nations pride?
Jim
A.L.F, you must have visited the Red Lips in Kowloon, mind you I can not remember seeing any fishing tackle or sleeping bags just bags sleeping!
Come on guys, no need for insults, if you have anything to say to an individual private them if they aint registered just ignore them. We are all a friendly bunch of fishermen here, shame to see people swapping frowns. Freedom of speech & all that eh?
Tony
Sorry guys I have closed this thread untill the boss has seen it..........
Tony
DanTheMan
06-02-2001, 00:06
my old mate coster's been a naughty boy i see!!! classic work mate - some of your best!!! lol. lots and lots ....
keep it kung fu!
mr.welch - i will inforce that yellow card for you buddy! keep up the excellent work.
Dan the man
jimrawcliffe
06-02-2001, 10:13
Hi there Alf, glad we reached common ground after all.
I understand "cynical" completely. You see I'm a published songwriter!
A couple of points need a reply. If we don't retain our British Identity we are nothing. We certainly can't take the [censored word] out of the French!!! It's about time we got it back. I don't know how we do it but I know that most of the lads I meet still believe we do it the best! Carp angling for a start.
Your point about the shops and overpricing is true BUT are you proposing that we do away with all retail outlets?! No more high streets! No more supermarkets! That's what trade is based on. Wholesalers and retailers. Surviving solely as a mail order company is very tough. The advertising costs are horrendous and what's more not everyone wants to buy everything by post. That's why we offer the mail order as service to people who can't get to shops ie in Devon, Wales, deepest Kent etc.
Happy climbing
Jim
Whilst I agree that this country may be slipping within the European Union, I may be worthwhile looking across the Atlantic to the States.
All those franchises have emerged from here, the sameness and the repetativeness is present. Food chains replicate others by changing one letter of the name. Yet look at the state of their communities, Their crime and criminal law. It's a shambles. Pedestrians can sue the council for millions for tripping on a paving slab that is 1mm higher than it's neighbour. Surely we are better off here.
Yet they are the most powerful nation in the world.
And look around to those who are worse off!
hope this is a more acceptable relpy Ian <<<lol>>>
Dave R
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Coster on 06/02/01 02:20 PM.</FONT></P>
CarponlineEditor
06-02-2001, 16:58
Blimey here we go again. lol. It is all very well talking about supplying the tackle shops with products but what about certain firms that do this and then decide to go into the mail order business themselves and then undercut the tackle shops. I know of more than one tackle shop owner who has had accounts with certain firms, bought their expensive items and then has been unable to sell them because the firms concerned have suddenly decided to go mail order and undercut the shops. Now I dont think that is what you call supporting your British tackle shops hey?
As for rubbish baits, yes this is true there are baits that we as anglers dont know anything about. I mean what they contain here. It is a difficult one to answer though in some cases as I am sure that bait firm owners dont really want to have a complete list of their bait ingredients on the bags that they sell them in. It would not be a very good business idea would it? On the other hand though, how many of you remember those baits that you used to be able to get in packets that held a liquid and they looked a bit like jelly sweets? I cant remember what they were called but on one of the european waters that was filled in with these baits it was a total catastrophy. One of the biggest carp in the country concerned was found dead and when it was cut open to see what the cause had been it was found to be full of little balls that looked to be made of glass. It wasnt glass but it was the residue from these baits. They did break down in water or the fishes gutt but only down to these little rock hard balls. They found lots of fish which had these little balls inside them. I havent seen these baits around for a long time now but I have wondered if anything was or could have been done to the manufacturer if these baits were proved to be the cause of these fishes death.
One other point here is yes I have bought goods that I thought were the bees knees and real cheap as well but they turned out to be rubbish, and yes we all learn by our mistakes, but there are still items that can be bought much cheaper if you look around that are of a high quality. Just because something has a cheap price does not mean it is rubbish. If we had to only buy things in our lives that were made entirely in Britain then we would not have a lot would we? I bet most things that we use in our daily lives are either made abroad or have components that are made abroad, so I think it is a bit daft to say that we should buy everything we use from Britain. Even a lot of our food is imported, we are living on an island you know and not a very big one at that.
Anyway happy 6th Feb everyone lol
Andy
Happy 6th of Feb to you too.
For me ALF is making in the most sense at the moment. The reality is that this country is not what it was, and should probably stop trying to be.
A common theme seems to be that anything imported, i.e. not British, is rubbish. Just have a look in your tackle box, or around your home, and see how many of the things that have served you well for years are of foreign manufacture. How many are British? Who made the monitor you are staring at now?
Jim's sentiments are spot on, we should buy British where the choice of products is equally matched - price, quality (whatever that is), and availability. My point is that there rarely is a choice - the foriegn option nearly always wins the contest.
This bait thing is starting to worry me though. How do we control that one?
Andy
Trouble is though Andy, there is no market for the 'home grown' produce, we simply can't compete with the cheapness of imported goods. It's a fact of life and something that we have to live with and will most probably get worse.
Would anyone buy a product that is exactly the same but 30% more expensive, just because it was made in this country. It would be nice to say yes, but I fear the majority would say no.
Not saying that this is my point of view just giving the opposing arguement?
Dave R /images/forum/icons/shocked.gif
jimrawcliffe
06-02-2001, 20:49
That's easy Andy. Can you see this one coming. "Buy Tails Up"!!!!!!!
Of course there are a number of bait suppliers in the Uk that are worth buying from but there are also one's which if I was a punter that I would definately not buy from. Of course the answer to this one is to set up some sort of policing body to monitor what's going on. In reality it will never happen of course. It would be open to so much corruption it would be immpossible to run. Even if it were a government body there would always be suspicions. We print (well I think we do- we used to anyway!) a list of the ingredients that our bait contains. Mind you it doesn't include all the ingredients because after thirty years of experimenting I'm not going to give it all away. The thing is though, I could be telling you a pack of lies and nobody would ever know because there's no one to check. I can assure you that we are not telling you lies. If you really pushed me and came to the shop, I could show you the milk proteins and fishmeals etc that we use. In actual fact a few lads from a certain fish school checked out our baits without my knowledge. A year later we did a lot more business as a result!
So how can bait companies prove what they say. I'm afraid that's up to the punter to decide. You have to buy a small quantity of the base mix and roll it yourself if you really want to find out what it's like. Of course not so many years ago that's what everyone did. They knew how the bait rolled, how dense or soft it could be made, what boiling would do to it etc etc. They also knew wether or not they were getting the same bait if they had it ready rolled. We sell everyone the same bait whoever they are. I.e. Pro liver is pro liver. As far as controlling the bait thing goes well I'm afraid lads that I have to throw this cheap thing back at you. It's all very well buying cheap kit but when you get into the habbit it's difficult not to apply it to bait as well! I keep seing this advert for 5kg of bait for £11.99. Please. Can any of you tell me what could possibly be in this stuff that could be any good when at least the manufacturer and the retailer have to make a profit out of it! This is not sour grapes lads this is concern.
jimrawcliffe
06-02-2001, 20:51
Coster the yawn awakes and becomes Coster the intelectual. Well done geez.
CarponlineEditor
06-02-2001, 21:08
Blimey Jim, something I heartily agree with you about lol. Good bait has got to be a bit more expensive than the cheaper (loosely called bait) costs. If you know a bit about bait then you know that any ingredients that contain proteins, vitamins etc for example cost a fair bit more. There is no comparison in a bait which is made up mainly from a bulk ingredients such as semolina, which is cheap to obtain. However semolina baits, for example, will catch fish to start with but if you are doing any amount of baiting or fishing a water for any serious amount of time then catches will drop off quite quickly. I used to make up my own baits years ago before you could buy them from most places and it didnt take long to find out that certain ingredients made baits last as catchers for much longer than others. Normally the ones that worked were a bit more to buy because they were made up of things that benefitted the fish and after a while of eating these baits the fish seemed to somehow know what was good for them and what wasnt.
I do not advocate the use of cheap baits at all. If they are that cheap then they must contain cheap ingredients and that is not a good thing.
One thing that I will add though and that is that it would be very interesting to find out what some bait firms (I am not talking Tails up here) have in their bait as I bet some of them that maintain that they should be supported as being British suppliers buy a lot of their ingredients from abroad. Casein for example is very expensive to buy in the Uk and so are some other ingredients such as fish meal type ingredients. So I know that some baits that advocate being british products are basically telling little white ones. lol But that is a completely different matter.
Andy
Cheers Jim, I knew I had it in me.
Bit of a deep sleep, will be awake for years now. <<<lol>>>
Watch This Space.
Dave R /images/forum/icons/wink.gif
There are very high protein and vitamins in natural foods...... I use naturals, my choice, I would never buy bait from anywhere unless it was natural.... maggots, worms etc. I look at food stuffs and the protein content, fat content etc and think now will this work? I have coome up trumps on many occasions. Off the track here but you know me /images/forum/icons/smile.gif
Tony
Carpchasser
21-12-2004, 14:39
Heard that tails up are not doing the bags anymore.
Maybee everyone wants the cheap and nasty end of the market nowdays.
Very sad to hear that. I have had mine for six years and it's as good as new. You will be pushed to find a better one. I even managed to break it once through my own stupidity and Jim replaced it FOC.
"The next big topic in this whole saga is going to be bait. Now that's something we must all be wary of. The [censored] and I mean [censored], that's coming into this country from Europe needs serious scrutiny"
Well said Jim and I totally agree...and coming from someone with noted exertise in the area, such as yourself, carries great weight.
I understand Jim that you run a business, and it appears that your products, are in comparison of the highest quality..but I for one cannot help but be in sympathy with Scorpio who advocates the use of totally natural baits..such as maggots, worms etc.
Now please excuse my ignorance JIm, but I really have little idea what goes into your bait...but I feel inclined to suggest that the ideal bait..perhaps the future of baits is to create something totally natural...which includes no artifical additives what so ever.
After all, the boilee was only really invented to overcome the limitations of baiting at distance, and perhaps withstand the attention of smaller fish...since then we appear to have abused it to a degree in producing a bait that acts more as a bulk building stimulant to increase fish weights...I am sorry, but by doing this we are only cheating ourselves and worse sending our prized carp to an early grave imho. It creates the vicious circle that smaller carp have no worth, size is everything and creates all manner of issues which we endlessly debate without really looking at the root problems.
So Jim..is a purely natural bait/boilee an option?...I believe that such a product would be a market leader and undermine any credibility the cheap imports may hope to attain.
Kindest regards
Lee
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