barbed v barbless

[paulh]

which do you think are the best barbed or barbless.
I have seen arguements for and against both and I'm totally baffled so I thought I'd ask everyone their thoughts as to which hook they think is fish friendly and why.

[Smarts]

I use 90% barbless as the waters I used to fish the most made this a rule.I like the fact that they are easier to unhook and that fish can get rid of them better than barbed if the line breaks etc....however,I totally agree that they can cause more damage if care is not taken by moving around in the fish's mouth when bullied.Barbed hooks do not do this but CAN lead to damage when unhooking particularly on the smaller fish.
I ALWAYS use barbless hooks for pike and would like to think that this is common sense!

All in all I have no hesitation in using barbed hooks for specimen fish and normally use barbless or whisker barbs for small fish.

Smarts

[dolly]

I Totally agree!
enough said.

Dave.

[Paulm]

I agree with Ian on this one. I did read somewhere on another site that the barb acts like the 'keel on a boat' and durring the fight stops it tipping over.
Anybody got any views on this.

Paulm /images/forum/icons/wink.gif

[CarponlineEditor]

I reckon that in the hands of someone confident at unhooking fish then either is fine. I have used both extensively and I must admit that barbed hooks with the barb squashed down are better than barbless ones.

I have had fishing pals who when they catch a carp I have to do the unhooking as they arent too happy about it. I reckon that it is as simple as that. If you are confident then the deepest hook set will be okay. If you dont know what you are doing then you should use barbless until you are confident enough to use any hooks. Fish can suffer terrible damage in the wrong hands and these anglers should use barbless even though they may not be as stable at hook holding.

Andy

[fatboy]

Now this is something that I have not previously considered. I can certainly see how damage may be caused.

How about pike fishing though where there are multiple hook holds?

I have always used barbless trebles, and have felt that by doing this would inflict less damage on the pike, and (god forbid) make any deep hooking easier to extract. And yes I am a firm advocate of the instant strike. Also the danger of break offs leaving barbed hooks in the pike's mouth is lethal.

Surely pike fishing is an exception, but I would appreciate any thoughts you guys have on this, as the last thing I would wish is to cause unnecessary damage to the fish.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by fatboy on 30/01/01 05:06 PM.</FONT></P>

[Smarts]

Using barbless on pike is a good idea.I think I'm right in thinking that you are worried about the hooks moving as suggested in the other posts?
The benefit of barbless when it comes to unhooking pike far outweigh that.Like you,I strike quick,but you know how it is when you have to unhook a pike through the gill rakers where it's gone straight down the hatch!
Because of the danger of a loose treble when netting a pike getting stuck in the net,it's worth using the barbless.
In fact I even crush the barbs on my lures,(best of both worlds?),although they can shake them off when airborne!

Smarts

[scorpio]

Barbed or micro barb hooks are most definately the best to use. It the hook hold is such that it is difficult to extract the hook wire cutters should be used to cut off the eye and extract the hook that way. As for pike fishing there is no way you can use barbed hooks unless they are single hooks. A Barbless or semi barbless treble will always hold. One other point, I would never use stainless steel hooks neither for obvious reasons. If an angler is inexperienced at unhooking fish he should look for a competent angler to unhook his/her fish. I have done this myself on occasions when Pike fishing, not because I am incompetent at unhooking Pike but sometimes it is easier and better for the fish to ask for assisstance.

Tony

[fatboy]

Thanks for the feedback. Having been out of mainstream fishing for a while, I thought I had missed a major "policy about turn" regarding barbed vs barbless when piking, but at the same time struggling to reconcile in my own mind how on earth barbed hooks would be better for a pike.

Thanks for putting my mind at rest.

[loki]

In view of the above posts, why is it that some venues have 'barbless hooks only' rules? There must have been some specific thoughts behind the ruling.

I had not considered the down side to barbless hooks before and, being confident in my ability to properly unhook a fish, I would prefer to use barbed (perhaps partially crushed).

[Boo]

Having returned to fishing last year after a long lay off I got the impression that most venues now demanded barbless hooks. Most of mine are therefore barbless. Like Smarts I have been fishing venues where the use of barbed hooks means an instant ban. Why do fisheries insist on barbless if they are likely to cause more damage? It seems rather counter productive if fish safety is the supposed reason.

I have got rigs made up with both types of hook and have just started to use barbed hooks again. I will take particular note of the 'results'!

[scorpio]

Ian,

I think that it is swings and roundabouts here. I think Barbed hooks damage smaller fish more than barbless, for example a smaller fish is not going to put up such a struggle as a larger specimen. I do agree that for specimen angling and fishing for the larger species that Barbed hooks should be used. I know this is going to complicate matters but in my opinion if using a size 16 or less i think that all hooks should be barbless as the smaller the hook the more difficult it is to remove from a fishes mouth... any opinions on this?

Tony

[CarponlineEditor]

Yes I will agree with that. I have seen people trying to unhook little roach and perch when using barbed hooks and it is sometimes a terrible thing to see. Lips all fallen off etc. But in the right hands I believe that barbed hooks are better for fishing for carp. As Ian says though day ticket or overfished club lakes etc would have to use a barbed hook ban as there are always those that cannot unhook a fish properly and when you see all the parrot fish around that is sad too.

I dont do much piking but when i do it only involves one treble and that is barbless or of it is a spinner or the like i would normally crush the barbs on it.

Andy

[John_H]

This is another interesting string and some of what I have read is news to me.

I have been working on the theory, I can't remember whether it was from American game fishing research or a J Bailey article, that when catching and releasing fish the main objective should be to get them back in the water fast. This underpins the use of barbless hooks, and no long periods with the fish out of water while you admire it or take photos.

In terms of mouth damage, I see the point, but again I understand fishes mouths are meant for rugged use as they fulfil the functions of mouth, hands and simple tools in ourselves. Take the example of a Chub growing to good size in a river like Avon or Kennet. During its life it may well suck silkweed from an underwater wall, eat a few perch fry and munch some swan mussels and signal crayfish - all of which could damage its mouth quite as much as a hook. No matter because the mouth is intended for tough use and will soon heal up. So - fast unhooking and return to the water outweighs a little extra hook damage.

Another point - do we kid ourselves about how effective barbs on hooks are anyway ? In my fly fishing where I use barbed as I mostly catch and kill and finish when I (sometimes) reach the limit, I guess that with 30% plus of my fish the hook either falls out in the landing net or has not gone in over the barb and can be instantly flicked out. And I don't mess about playing them either. The same happens in coarse fishing with barbless...

Ian, if I have got the biology wrong please correct me as there is an important fish welfare point here.

[Cooperman]

I was always sceptical on how safe it was to use barbless hooks, until that is, i actually used them. My local club water has a barbless rule, so being the honest and rule abiding angler that i am (sic), i used them. That season i hook 30 carp, i landed 27 of them, i lost one in a snag, and 2 hook pulls after only a couple of seconds, no different to similar results using barbed hooks.

On the subject of damage during the fight, i think that barbless hooks can cause damage to the fish with their movement during the fight, but it only seems to happen to fish in silty lakes, the gravel pit fish i was catching, all had very hard mouths, this meant that the hook did just fall out in the net, and when we looked into the mouth there was just a small red hole, nothing had slipped, or torn the mouth!!

But on silty lakes where the fishes mouths are softer we have seen the damage that others have mentioned.

[Sim0n]

....I must be very lucky, but I have only ever caused damage to a fishes mouth on a couple of occaisions where I have had a hookhold slip (hooking a fish 1.5 to 2 inches inside the fleshy parts of the mouth). Even where I've had to give fish stick near snags etc. nothing....only a small red dot. I have fished with barbed and barbless hooks, and even with the dreaded Owner Cutting Points. However in my young inexperienced match fishing days, I noticed that small roach etc were susceptable to damage when barbed hooks were used.
Given the choice I would sit on the fence and use a semi-barbed hook!

[scorpio]

John,

A very good point, Trout and salmon fight like demons as you know and will loosen a hook hold a lot easier than say a carp. American fly fishing is generally for Game fish and these type of fish are not as hardy when out of the water as a Carp or a coarse fish. They need a higher oxygen content as well as having completely different mouth's as they are predacious.

You cannot relate the American/Game fishing ways to our coarse angling. I loose 75% more trout using barbless hooks when I catch & release and never take a caught trout out of the water for a photograph, even my PB of 14lbs was not photographed for that reason. It was unhooked in the net and held in the water for 30 seconds or so and swam off. I think that we should adopt the same for coarse angling.

I was involved in a live debate about catch and release with some top anglers and also fishery owners and they all dissagreed with it for the fishes welfare and their own and one owner used my laid out rules for his catch and release regime on his water.

1. No removing fish from the water.
2. No stainless hooks.
3. Only soft coarse landing nets to be used.
4. No retaining fish for any length of time for photogtraphy or weighing.
5. No leader less than 5lb BS.

In retrospect to this my Trout "estimated at 14lb's" was probably over 16lb's I was not bothered in the figures although it was my PB by far.

Don't all have a go at me all at once will ya /images/forum/icons/smile.gif

Tony

[John_H]

This debate could go on for ages, Tony.

I see your point about trout shedding hooks easily because of their hard fight - but the same happens for me when I am grayling fishing on the trotting gear. While grayling are wonderful fish, I don't think they are very hard fighters (neither as hard nor as intelligent fighters as similar size chub) and their tough, toothless mouths are more like a miniature carp's mouth than a trout's.

I feel catch and release (or not) of stocked rainbow trout in ticket waters is a one-off. This due to heavy fishing pressure and doubts about how robust fast-grown stockies are. Apparently on 100% catch and release fisheries on the upper Itchen and Dorset Frome, with light to moderate fishing pressure, wild brownies are thriving.

I'm still coarse fishing for light to medium size species barbless and getting what I catch back in the water as fast as I can sensibly manage.

[paulh]

Many thanks, quite an in depth subject, your posts have helped clear up alot of my confusion, great stuff.
I've just returned from a 3 day blanking session, the water I was on used to be barbless but recently allowed the use of mircobarbs but as yet I 've only caught on barbless there.The lake is a carp lake with most fish being 10lb+.However I can say that the fish havent had any mouth damage when the barbless only rule was in effect.
Keep your views coming its grat to read your views
many thanks paul

[Nick_the_Fish]

I only use barbless hooks.

Contrary to popular belief, you will always hook and land more fish on a barbless hook.

This is especially true whilst fishing at range with mono.

The very nature of a barbless hook means that its profile is much smaller, and therefore far less energy is required to drive the hook in to the bend - and as i am sure you are aware, once a hook is in to the bend it can only come out if you allow the fish slack line.

Sure the hook could tear through, but elementary physics will tell you that this is as likely to happen with a barbed hook as with a barbless hook.

And the rumour that barbless hooks cause parrot mouths? Rubbish. Bad angling causes parrot mouths. A combination of braided hooklengths, rods which are too powerful and designed only for casting distance, and bullying are the cause of damage to fish mouths.

And babrbless hooks turning in fish mouths? OK which makes a bigger hole and therefore gives rise to turning? Barbed or barbless? Clearly a barbed hook has to make a bigger hole!

To answer your question, use whichever pattern most closely resembles the hook you usually use!

For most of my fishing i use a Colmic Nucleus, though i wouldn't reccomend this hook for any hore than a 5lb hooklength!

Tight Lines!

Nick