View Full Version : still water barbel
I have noticed R.M.C have stocked barbel into the burfield match has anybody got any thoughts on this?I for one would hate to see a barbel record broken in years to come by a stillwater fish. Here is a quote from doctor Andy Orme fresh water biologist and campaigner against stillwater barbel " It is cruel to stock barbel into an environment to which they are unsuited and secondly, such actions encourage people to steal fish from rivers and to sell them to stillwater fisheries" How does this fit in with the " keeping it real brigade" or does this only apply to carp ?
Rivercarper
15-05-2001, 18:13
I have no snobbish views on the subject but if it's cruel to stock them in to still waters then why are those that have been stocked in to various venues doing so well.
Barble in stillwater.... why not if they are sucessful... the only problem could be competition for food with carp and carp anglers looking on the magnificent Barbel as a nuicense fish.
If the Chub record was broken from a stream fed lake would it be valid? Of course it would so why would the Barbel record not be?
If a Barbel is stocked into a still water from being reared it cannot be cruel because it does not know anything else.
Tony
Rivercarper
15-05-2001, 19:38
Most of the still waters they have been stocked in Tony are match type venues not carp lakes.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Rivercarper on 15/05/01 07:38 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
Oic, well that's not a problem then as far as I can see, it ads to the variety of fish you can catch at those type of waters.
I know RMC have stocked them into the match lake (Burghfield), what are other fisheries doing the same sort of thing?
Tony
I have a lake run by my local club that has barbel in it, although these were naturally stocked in through the river flooding years ago. they run to around 6lb and are the most prised fish in the water as there are not many in there. There are also chub in there too that go to around 5-6lbs. the interesting thing is is there are no carp in the pool.
sam
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Rivercarper
15-05-2001, 20:12
Quite a few of the match venues now have them Tony.
Rivercarper
15-05-2001, 20:16
Wouldn't it be nice bivvi up on the lake for the weekend and fishing for big Barbel.Saves chasing them up and down rivers.
Don't Makins supposodly have 14lb barbel in them or something like that?
sam
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This fish was not fully authenticated, but I suspect they may well reach double figures in heavily fished lakes. I remember catching a stillwater barbel at Billy Makin's lake in Wolvey many moons ago. It weighed about 4 lb and was in pristine condition. There is no scientific basis for barbel being "unsuited" to a stillwater environment except where spawning is concerned. There is no doubt the fish thrive is stillwater. It is also worth noting that many big barbel move out of the fast flowing River Lea and into the sluggish Releif Channel of their own accord. Is this piscine masochism ?
It's not for me but if anglers like to take them from lakes then that's fine. However, I should point out that the day after fishing at Makins we went to fish the River Severn at Atcham, where the biggest I took that day was only 3 lb. But it fought like a fish double the size of the stillwater one....stick to the rivers for the real "barbel experience".
I think I should have said there is no scientific evidence for "suffering" of barbel in stillwaters rather than them being "unsuited". Obviously they are adapted to live in fast flowing water. It's a question as to whether they suffer when they are bred to live in still water, but I don't think it's as bad as putting a fish in fast water that cannot adapt, for it would surely die.
In Barbel Fishing World, there is a good page detailing the arguments against stillwater barbel stocking. See <A target="_blank" HREF=http://homepages.tesco.net/~barbel/html/stillwater.htm>http://homepages.tesco.net/~barbel/html/stillwater.htm</A>
Points 8, 10 and 15 would be the ones that perhaps might indicate mortality of barbel in stillwaters, but none of these prove directly that any suffering occurs. Point 8, regarding oxygen requirements for survival, not just spawning, would be the one to worry about.
If there were genuine scientific evidence of suffering I would support a ban on stillwater barbel stocking !
Can't help playing devil's advocate though !
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by scorpio on 16/05/01 07:44 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
1. A total of 38 species of barbel have been recorded in Europe with only one (Barbus barbus) in the U.K. It is
the U.K. species which requires clean, flowing, well oxygenated water (Lelek, 1980; Huet, 1959;) with a gravel
river bed to reproduce (Balon's 1975, 1981, Baras, 1994).
2. The Environment Agency in their good practice guide to Freshwater Fisheries state that is dubious practice to
deliberately stock barbel into habitats where they are expected to live on a catch-and-release basis while being
very unlikely to be able to spawn successfully.
3. Barbel (Barbus barbus) are widespread in the river systems of our country and are easily accessible to the
angler. There is no need for stillwater stocking of these river fish.
4. There is justifiable fear that stocking small barbel into commercial stillwater fisheries creates a demand
leading the unscrupulous to take large barbel from the rivers to the detriment of the river anglers and the barbel
themselves.
5. Fish farms that breed barbel and grow them on for stocking do this in semi still water but all require some
method for increased oxygenation (Ibbotson 1994).
6. There is no published scientific information which recommends the stocking of barbel into stillwaters, or which
claims barbel thrive and grow big in stillwater.
7. Barbel require conditions to spawn which cannot be found in stillwaters (Ibbotson, 1994) and naturally
sustaining populations of barbel in stillwaters are not possible.
8. Barbel are less tolerant of high water temperatures and low oxygen levels than stillwater fish such as tench
and carp. The lethal concentration of oxygen is almost twice as high for barbel than it is for tench. (Ibbotson,
1994).
9. In 1896 and again during the 1960's a few barbel were introduced to the Dorset Stour and the Hampshire
Avon where they multiplied and thrived to produce a barbel mecca. In 1956 Angling Times introduced 509 barbel
to the River Severn and we now have over one hundred miles of prime barbel fishing. A few barbel were also
introduced to the River Wye, the Bristol Avon etc. and some northern rivers such as the Ribble, Dane and
Weaver. They have thrived in all these rivers.
10. More barbel have been stocked into stiliwaters than all the above mentioned rivers put together. These
stillwater stockings are frequently repeated, as the only impact they have is to increase the mortality rates of the
stillwater fishery.
11. Barbel are great wanderers in rivers, often moving several kilometres in a matter of days (Hunt & Jones,
1974; Baras & Cherry, 1990; Lucas & Batley, 1996) in order to seek suitable conditions when changes in water
temperature, flow rates etc. occur and also to suit their seasonal needs. Barbel cannot do this in the commercial
stillwaters.
12 Commercial stillwaters do not provide the correct habitat for barbel to thrive not just the water quality is in
question but the overhead cover is usually missing.
13. Copp & Bennetts (1996) reported a significant decrease in the abundance and size of barbel in a reach of
the River Lee after the removal of some 30% of the bankside vegetation.
14. After removal of all the bankside vegetation and instream branches from a stretch of the River Teme all the
barbel moved to other areas. Stillwater barbel have little choice - they have to stay, until they die, in conditions
they would not normally tolerate.
15. Several case studies of the effects of impoundment of river sections containing natural barbel populations
exist. In all cases, with the onset of stillwater flow conditions barbel populations declined appreciably. (Fernando
& Holcik, 1991; Juradja & Penaz, 1994; Juradja, 1995; Lusk, 1995; Penaz 1995, 1996).
16. Thousands of small barbel have entered Trimpley reservoir via an inlet from the River Severn yet Trimpley is
not full of large barbel! If only 10% of them had entered a suitable habitat there would have been a barbel
explosion.
17. Barbel are stocked into commercial stillwaters without any thought for the fish themselves but for financial
gain - greed!
18. Barbel spend most of their lives on the riverbed and in stillwaters they have a greater risk of parasites in
these conditions.
19. The potential for recapture is far greater in stillwaters than it is in rivers and barbel will experience increased
stress when frequently caught and more so at spawning time by being unable to spawn in stillwater conditions.
20. Continued exposure to poor water quality and lack of water flow will affect the survival of individual barbel -
they will die.
Many thanks to the Barbel Society for supplying the above literature.
The only justification i personely can see for keeping barbel in still water is lakes may provide better access for disabled people.If your desperate for a barbel at any cost get yourself down your local lake! It is also worthy of note that the national association of specialist anglers and the anglers conservation association are against this practice.I maybe wrong but i think E.C.H.O. may contribute to one of these orginisations. keeping it real on the rivers jack.
Maybe if there was inough financial demand you could stock some grayling ,it would keep the fluff flingers happy!
...what about Chub.....or is that a different 'kettle of fish'?!
....by the way jack.....thats a pretty impressive post - post of the month - there should be a prize!
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Maybe ray walton would volunteer himself for a days meat rolling down at burfield , this could go to the post of the month!
Chub do seem adifferent kettle of fish ,take for example the classic chub swim it is usually a slack bordering faster water so they can take advantage of anything that flows past.I know plenty of rivers that adjoin canals where the chub thrive but it is very rare for the barbel to get caught in these sections.Could it be they prefere the fasterflow?
Excellent post Jack, as a Barbel Society member I support your view and would not fish for barbus barbus in stillwater. My local lake in Basildon holds them and I refuse to fish it. I think it is a bad move by RMC to stock them into a stillwater. More ammo for the antis.
Rich.
....I'm enjoying this thread!!! I'm on the fence, but I nearly lost my balance there.....excellent reply Ian....NEXT!
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Firstly i would never tell anybody how or what to fish for because i am no purist(let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that) the only thing that matters is the fishes welfare. The analogy of having cats and dogs neutered is irrelevent . We have cats and dogs speyed so there are not lots of little puppies and kittens running that we or their parents cannot look after.Fish do not have the same problems rearing their young the only consistantly important factor is suitable spawning grounds. As for encouraging youngsters to the sport i can only comend your actions but would it not be better to take youngsters to a river to catch and study fish in their own environment instead of a bagging pool . This is the only way to teach youngsters the value of our rivers and safe gaurd our rivers for the future.
I beleive Ian does take them to rivers for the fish-ins, and not to burghfield etc.... He said he would personally not fish for them in a stillwater. but he needs to cater for others that would like to.
Dave
what about disabled anglers who have never had the chance to fish for barbel due to the terain of the rivers?
I have to agree with Ian,
I have yet to catch a barbel, and when I do it will be from a river, however it's a question of supply and demand.
And I'm sure Ian looked into this very carefully before deciding to stock barbel into stillwaters.
I've also taken my son fishing to both stillwaters and rivers, and he gets bored very quickly on rivers, his attention span is a bit longer on stillwaters.
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paulh
What can i say you cant knock a bloke trying to earn a living.
Rivercarper
16-05-2001, 18:52
This might not be relevant but the wife had me spayed do you think she was telling me some thing.
Make room for one more on that fence SimOn, excellent thread.
There is now way anyone who is a still water trout angler argue with the spawning as Rainbow trout do not spawn in this country. As for Barbel if they are being artificially reared is it that important that they spawn?
On the subject of Chub, they survive in still water as good or even better than in rivers.
Tony
There are special reserved swims at Fisher Green for disabled anglers
Tony
Tony, there are self-supporting populations of rainbows in two UK rivers, the Derbyshire Wye and the Buckinghamshire Chess. Agree with you about stillwaters though, despite the line of bull that one or two fishery managers have tried to spin over the years...
....plenty of chub in Mercers Park...huge ones too.
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